Health Care Bill: What Will Happen?

[Grunt]

In more than 400 events: one slap, one shove, three punches, two signs grabbed, one self-inflicted vandalism incident by a liberal, one unsolved vandalism incident, and one serious assault. Despite the left's insistence on the essentially barbaric nature of Obamacare critics, the video, photographic, and police report evidence is fairly clear in showing that 7 of the 10 incidents were perpetrated by Obama supporters and union members on Obama critics.

The evidence does not support the lefts insistence that the violence is coming from the right

[Sturm-II]

Regardless of either left ot right/(R) or (D)
There is a line that cannot be crossed, it's called the legal boundary between free speech and incitment.

Political leaders have a substaniated history of stoking the emotions and intellects of voters with various forms of public address speeches. Part and parcel to the political lexicon granted, but that does not, nor should not alleviate the burden of content responsibility in those addresses.

The media to has the same responsibility given they are the vehicle that streams the same speeches to the masses, along with their PoV commentary/interpretation.

Those who structure rallies for said parties are to responsible for the content they allow at said rallies as do the supporters of said parties.

thoughts?

[Reylan Talonspyre]

You can be a Conservative and support a publicly funded universal health system

I would agree as long as, magically, it does not increase the size of government. I point again to a Japanese system where the insurance "companies" are actually non-for-profits.

Problem: To make said change to our system it would require that American's trust the US Government to take over completely the private sector insurance companies, restructure the market into a non-profit sector, then let them continue with diminishing regulations over a quick time frame.

There are other ways to do this, through incentives for non-profit insurance company start ups, etc.

Of course, this is ludicrous to even look at because we want the failing system of Sweden or the rest of Europe.



I am not heartless as many of you may think, I just don't believe that any real liberal would vote for this bill or support it. It will hurt the elderly, cuts in Medicare and Medicaid. It sacks Social Security. It is not sustainable without the removal of other public programs.

This bill is a re-election tool. You put it into effect. You know you will loose office. You loose office, when the GOP goes to fix the problems and does so, with hatred from the American people because of the massive problems it will cause, the Democrats will get re-elected (theoretically on both GOP and Democratic victories) and then re-institute said programs.

The effect will be catastrophic.

From a blog I was reading that analyzed the Moody's report:

If America is downgraded below Moody’s AAA rating, what will happen? First and foremost, the interest we pay on the deficit will rise. The more we borrow, the less able we are to repay the debt and future borrowing -- and America borrows at least monthly and sometimes more often -- will have to be paid for at higher interest rates. Which means the ratio of interest payments to revenue will worsen. Which will cause further increases in the interest rate, and so on.

Revenues -- taxes -- will rise next year. Or at least that’s the theory. The Bush tax cuts will expire at the end of 2010 and income, capital gains and estate taxes will rise. But will that raise revenues, or will the tax hikes result in decreased revenue?

History -- and the Laffer Curve -- must be our guides. They tell us that America’s tax revenue will probably increase briefly until employers and investors adjust to the higher new taxes. And then revenues will begin to fall because less money will be collected as businesses and individuals will be doing their best to avoid taxation.

Moody’s report said, “Growth alone will not resolve an increasingly complicated debt equation. Preserving debt affordability at levels consistent with AAA ratings will invariably require fiscal adjustments of a magnitude that, in some cases, will test social cohesion.”

Preserving debt affordability at levels consistent with AAA ratings will invariably require fiscal adjustments of a magnitude that, in some cases, will test social cohesion.

Are you kidding me?

Now, here is the thing, Bush did his fair share of this too, but Mr. Obama and his Congress have not done anything to cease this reckless spending. America cannot afford this health care bill. The CBO projections were inaccurate as they admitted because they cannot accurately predict the outcome of this bill.

People ... you were sold a bill of goods similar to the Iraq War.

The demand was not as bad as you thought. The statistics were played with. This is a quagmire that will not end in this President's 4 year term in office. This is going to be catastrophic to American moral and economy.

Congratulations, you Democrats/Liberals were blue with envy for not getting to respond to a crisis like 9-11, well you are creating one.

No wonder the GOP/Palin would put up signs supporting the shooting of Democratic leadership ...

A people who has no voice through media. No voice with their typical advocacy groups (NAACP, Unions, and ACLU). Ignored by their supposed representatives get angry. Our own history shows that oppressive taxation, no representation within a detached centralized government, with no outlet for the frustration of watching someone destroy your country's future with big smiles and lies coming from the media, will lead to rebellion.

We all hope it is the John Adams style rebellion, done through peaceful means. We all hope no violence will ever ensue from it. But let us be frightfully honest, this is not the same as the Bush presidency.

Reason 1. The media supports this President. Fawns over him. Agrees with him.
Reason 2. Congress is in lock-step with this President, even to the point of falling on their swords for him.

Remember, Bush had no love from the media. Bush had a Congress that dissent when they tried to pass the Defense of Marriage Act.

I studied this sort of thing in college, I am by no means an expert, but most of what I hear out there in cyberspace, on the street, on other social sites and blogs is "The health care bill is good because the evil, angry, white, redneck, male Republican party hates it."

Evil, angry, white, redneck, male Republican Party.
Evil, angry, white, redneck, male Republican Party.

The media, White House, and Congress help to push that agenda.

Good. Keep it up. Polling data is showing disgust for the bill and Congress. Republican values are in ascendancy. There will be a Reckoning on behalf of America. The revolution will come in November.

Beware of the 1st Tuesday of November.

Unless the Democrats can come up with a great reason to suspend elections.

[Grunt]

This bill will cost AT&T 1 billion dollars in the first year alone
Yet the Democrats tried to sell it as a job creation
I am sure an extra cost of 1 billion dollars a year will encourage them to hire more people and give everyone raises

[Gerien]

We tried it your way for 8 years and look where it got us.

[Grunt]

Bankrupting the nation will not help anyone
CBO estimates are now that in 10 years debt will be 90% of GDP
when exactly is the right time to spend wisely

[tubs]

Grunt, AT&T was previously receiving a subsidy for health benefits for retirees which was stopped by the passage of this bill, thus the extra $1 billion in costs they estimate to keep the same benefits. Those other three companies reporting $265 million in expected costs, apparently it's being investigated. See here: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-0 ... costs.html. The bill is designed to be cost neutral so we should see what these companies find vs the independent estimates.

But honestly, even if they turn out to be correct you should look at these costs in a bit of balance; Verizon, Caterpillar Inc. and Deere & Co are some of the largest corporations in the US - Caterpillar and Verizon both being part of the Dow. $265 million over these three corporations on employee benefits is pennies to them. Some other companies have already reported in that they expect no change in costs. It's something to keep an eye on, but lets not make accusations that it's going to bankrupt the country just yet.

[bigSparky]

We tried it your way for 8 years and look where it got us.

I just love this bullshit response. It's so typical of the left. Most of us here on the right bashed Bush as much as we defended him. We were calling him out on TARP, Cap and Trade(yes, that first came up under him), immigration, etc, while you lot were accusing him of causing Katrina and sabotaging the levies, sending the planes into the WTC and pentagon(when you weren't claiming the collapses weren't caused by the planes but rather by preset bombs in the building) and any other wacko conspiracy y'all could come up with. Substance vs smoke and mirrors. Few things have stuck in my craw as much as defending Bush against obvious twisting of the truth and outright lies. Ironically, it is those same said lies of the left that have enabled the bane of your existence, FOX News, to so wax the rest of the MSM month after month for the last ten years. The only thing he really did of a conservative nature was the tax cuts. He had congress for the first four years and did nothing with it . Tort reform(ironically even then in the name of health care cost reduction), social security, immigration and a realistic work visa program, all went untouched. Most of us equally chastised him for keeping Rumsfeld around for so long, for the "good job Brownie" on Katrina, and the Patriot Act, as well as many other things.

The fact is this is a horrible bill. The fact is all kinds of underhanded backroom deals had to be made to get it passed. The fact is the GOP put forth a number of proposals that would have gone to true reductions in the actual cost of health care for everyone, yet ALL were summarily rejected. Instead we are now going to increase the cost of it to everyone who can already afford it to provide for the few who would have never considered it otherwise. What is Cap and Trade doing in a health care reform bill? How about Pell grants or funding only to all black colleges? Surely no matter how leftist you are you can see these things have no business in a "health care reform" bill. Worst of all things is the federal mandate, as it sets up a very slippery slope heading towards the government mandating that we buy all manner of things. It's a very dangerous precedent.

[Grunt]

Tubs listen to your twisted logic
They are big companies so it will not effect anyone
Truth is they are big companies so it will effect everyone
the bill is already proving to increase costs across the board
If you honestly think a company can absorb a billion dollars without passing the cost on in either higher costs or fewer jobs then you really need an economics course
And it is a huge surprise that CEOs who have spoken out against the policy are now being called up to congress
Yep every company who made a statement against the bill are being called for hearings
To think the left used to hate McCarthy tactics

Well stated sparky

[Sturm-II]

That $1b in cost = $13.33 per wireless customer, master Grunt.

*edit
My original number of wireless customers wasn't accurate:
AT&T has 85.1 million wireless customers, and more than 150 million total customers.
US $1b in cost = $11.75 per wireless customer
US $1b in cost = $6.66 as per total customer.

apologies

AT&T's revenue for 2008 - US $119.3 Billion

[bigSparky]

They used to accuse Reagan of using voodoo economics. His paled in comparison. Right off the bat, my insurance costs are going to go up to pay "my share" of OTHER PEOPLE'S health coverage. In addition to that, since I use AT&T as my cell provider, that's another 13 bucks I have to pay for "my share" of OTHER PEOPLE'S health care. Food costs will also likely go up to cover the big agri-business's additional costs. With companies experiencing higher costs there will be less money to pay wages, so lay-offs are likely to occur. Less people working means less building, commercial and otherwise. Less construction means I will likely get laid off at 54 years old, having done little else than what I'm doing for the last 22 years. It's going to be what, six years before any one sees any benefit from this? It was done all bass-ackwards. Why couldn't they have implemented the GOP's reforms along with such things as pre-existing conditions and the like, and actually reduced the cost of health care, and THEN spread it around. I now am compelled against my will to purchase something I may or may not want, that will have to meet specific requirements determined by the fed. I can only buy this product from a company the fed deems acceptable. That means I will be covered for things I don't need. If I exceed those requirements with my MANDATORY purchase, because I can afford to, I will be further taxed. The bill is crap and is NOT "a start...Something is better than nothing".

[tubs]

Tubs listen to your twisted logic
They are big companies so it will not effect anyone
Truth is they are big companies so it will effect everyone

$260m in total over those three companies is not a big deal. You would expect costs like this for administrative changes in companies that employ this many people. I'm not making a general assertion here that 'those large companies can just suck it up!', rather I'm addressing this specific case. I'm sure more companies will add their findings in the coming weeks and we should follow this stuff and make sure the bill does what's it's supposed to, but come on, don't jump to conclusions so soon it's rather silly to.

The $1 billion in costs AT&T are quoting on the other hand, we'll have to see exactly what it's about. It sounds like all the costs these companies are reporting stem from a subsidy that allowed companies to pay for prescription drug coverage for their retirees and take that off their tax filing and now they can't do that. Presumably they could pay the tax and let medicare do the drug coverage and it'll ultimately make zero difference.

[MoP]

What is the bill expected to cost? $1.2 trillion?

Isn't that about as much as each of your wars cost? Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, ... ? (just doing some quick googling, so it really is a question, not a statement :p)

[Grunt]

MOP the constitution specifically tells the federal government to support an army and defend the nation
There is nothing that says they must make doctors supply you with their service
The comparison with the military is constantly used
That is like the wife going shopping for new figurines then when you complain she brings up the mortgage
Besides the fact the wars will end but this will only grow with time



Tubs I think you over look the Democrats ultimate objective and the fact they state this merely kicks in the door to the ultimate goal of universal single payer system
The objective with this bill is to force companies to stop providing insurance and medical benefits and get everyone into the government pool
Unions AT&T and others have already stated they will be cutting those benefits rather than pay the inflated prices

[MoP]

The constitution may say you can have an army and defend yourself, but does it say something about financing a foreign army in a war you have nothing to do with?

http://www.rense.com/general41/trill.htm

[Grunt]

A democracy in the middle of monarchies and tyrannies is in the US interest
We also sent billions in aid to Europe and Asia and every other continent

[Sturm-II]

!!
US $1.8T plus perks and costing 275,000 American jobs each year.

[Gili]

A democracy in the middle of monarchies and tyrannies is in the US interest
We also sent billions in aid to Europe and Asia and every other continent

I think that is the whole point. If you can justify sending gazillions of pounds/lives abroad to help out foreigners is it to much to think about sharing some of your tax dollars to help your own.

[Grunt]

I do not expect Europeans to understand but I see the American dream fading as we turn more into a welfare state
The productive and successful are being punished for the bad decisions of others
The self reliant spirit is being eroded and this is but another step
Drop out of school and do drugs no problem we have have a program to help you
Have 4 kids by the time you are 20 no problem we have a program to help you
Be responsible and save money till you can afford kids sorry nothing for you but higher taxes
Buy a house you can not afford then no problem the government will step in and make the evil bank give you a break
be responsible and only buy the house you can afford then help pay for your neighbors McMansion
Banks make bad investments no problem government bailout on the way
In life there are choices and consequences and the current system is attempting to remove the consequences for poor decisions
I do not feel it is my responsibility to pay for others bad choices nor should they pay for mine

[MoP]

Ah, yes, but that's what we had 50 years ago. And then we evolved the system, making sure the ones who need help get it, and the ones just abusing the system get filtered out and punished.

Of course, we still have a long way to go. And since America only just took the first step, their road is even longer. You can only hope they learn from what happened to us.