The Thief is Toothless

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Nymphsong
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The Thief is Toothless

Post by Nymphsong » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:09 am

I am approaching this from the guilds game perspective only, but others might want to add in their thoughts as well. My recommendation is that we make certain information invisible until the end of the age. The three lists that have really been bothering me are Turns Absorbed, Kills, and Deaths. Prior to war, especially when considering an up hit or other activity I fondly remember scum chats in which we would burn entire guilds or even better, scum kill key kingdoms to give the smaller or weaker guild a fighting chance prior to the ensuing conflict.

Here is my problem...when I can see who killed someone, who was killed, and how many turns were spent, the teeth of what a good scummer used to do outside of war, is magically...useless. All a GM needs to do is search the scrolls find the culprit(s) and annihilate them because they will have been awarded with 1 Kill. To me that seems very unrealistic for a war game. Burning and Looting could draw the same response as a GM could simply look at the changes in other subtle items. To me, this exposes what a scum realm could do. However, I do like the stats...so tell me there is a happy medium or a great justification from the past that I have been out of the loop on.

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Jokingjoe
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Re: The Thief is Toothless

Post by Jokingjoe » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:47 am

Being able to check kills does take out the romanticism of being a scummer and going for the scum kill.

Turns absorbed--meh

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Kaz
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Re: The Thief is Toothless

Post by Kaz » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:04 pm

In the context you're talking about, it's even worse considering that you can also use the bounty screen to query the kill record of any other kingdom at will. Through bounty, kills are fully accessible and have been for a while now.

Historically, the scores screen was actually added back in 2005 when I created the Massacre game format at Evernight. With the speed and frequency of kills in the Massacre game, networth didn't really mean anything any more so I created a selection of additional ranking objects.

While I can fully see your point there are several other perspectives to take into consideration.

As the scores screen has been available in all games since 2009 or so, a selection of players play specifically to build up their scores. Dauthi (for example) considers the scores relating to Kills to be more important than any other ranking object. If I was to take them away until the end of the age, I would be making a drastic change to his reason for playing.

Unseen scum kills are the most stressful and most abusable type of kill. While getting together with your guild to organise a huge unseen scum skill strike against an opposing guild was a lot of fun for the attackers, it was not fun for the defenders and was a guaranteed way of creating negative threads on the forums, and in some cases drove entire guilds away from the game.

I have read many threads over the years (both as an admin and a player) where certain players have been picked on by another player (or group of players) who scum killed them unseen every time they came out of NPP. That scummer isn't 'actually' breaking any rules, but is in a position to make the game unbearable for that other player without them ever learning who is picking on them.

While I agree that some things are lost by the publication of Kill information, I also think that some important things are gained, especially considering the population of the game. Even with kills recorded, scummers can burn, loot and sabotage with impunity and are safe knowing that they wont be seen, as there is not a single way for a kingdom to protect themselves against scum, war and sorcery at the same time.

But it's also important to recognise that a kill is a major event and can undo 'months' of play in a set or two of turns. It's both the start and end of a war in a single event, with no declaration needed, and without the defender ever knowing who killed them.

I am more than happy to discuss how we can improve the game for scummers, but the discussions obviously need to be considered from the perspective of the whole game.
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Nymphsong
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Re: The Thief is Toothless

Post by Nymphsong » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:31 pm

Kaz,

Thanks for your input. I was just trying to think of ways to get my smaller guild more active in guilds...a scum kill seemed to be appropriate during peace time events...in order to give me momentum going into an offensive strike of some type...until of course the kills gets recorded and I get bombarded. That said, I am more than willing to sacrifice a little of my strategy and conform to the new environment for the sake of others fun. And as I asked, I was looking for a historical context...and you provided it concerning the negative impact on players and game alike (I fondly remember the 30 page finger pointing threads). I totally respect your holistic review of the game. ;)

Nymph
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