It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

~ General comments and discussion.

Moderator: Staff

Connor
Lost Soul
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:17 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Connor » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:01 am

Lady Maven wrote:The second promise is that when all guns come out of the hands of criminals I will cheerfully and gratefully hand mine over to be destroyed and cheer the fact that I no longer feel I need one.
I'm enough of a realist to know that gun control in the US is probably never going to be a viable proposition - because there are too many guns in circulation and too much emotional sentiment about guns to realistically restrict black market sales. I agree that you probably can't meaningfully disarm the criminal element in CONUS and I get why people don't want to give up their guns in that situation.

I also think it's kind of circular logic that can never move anywhere. You would support restricting public access to firearms, if people didn't have firearms. But as long as people have firearms, you don't want to restrict their ability to get more? Call me crazy, but I don't see any kind of outcome with less guns if you follow that logic.

Maybe bans aren't the way to do it. Maybe the starting point needs to be making it really fucking difficult to fire a gun anonymously and then give cops the kind of incentive to monitor gun users that they currently have to monitor drivers. Require that people complete training and pass a test before they're given a gun and let police fine them if they aren't responsible gun owners.

Require every gun sold to test fire a dozen rounds to be recorded in a forensic datawarehouse, prior to shipping to market from the manufacturer, and a second round every time the barrel gets replaced. Pop a serial number on every shell and every bullet and record who they're sold too. Require evidence of where the last batch of bullets were used before you can get more. Limit ammunition carry and require that rounds be stored in a robustly secured location. Regulate and restrict gun and ammunition sales as vigourously as we regulate and restrict air travel with no sell and no carry lists issued at least as readily as we issue no fly lists. Probably not a winning election platform, but interesting to see the impact on shootings and convictions over 5 years after it went into place. There's a bunch of studies in circulation that argue that increasing penalties - even making the penalty for Jaywalking the death penalty - has limited (if any) impact on incidence of crime - but increasing the likelihood of being caught has a very strong impact.

User avatar
Lady Maven
Teacher
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:56 am
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Lady Maven » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:16 am

I agree with everything you said. And the futility of it was my point. I refuse to be in a society where only criminals have guns. And you can't get them out of their hands. And even *I* can make my own bullets, so restricting ammo is no good, I am lucky i haven't blown my own foot off playing with gun powder, I am a 'TARD.

ALL legal sane gun owners want to live in a world where we never need fear having to use a fire arm against a human being. But it simply is not realistic.
"By the nine arms of Vishnu, I swear I am not a Hindu!” - Apu


How did someone realize you could milk a cow? And what the hell did they think they were doing to the cow in the first place?!

User avatar
MoP
Savant
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by MoP » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:32 am

Lady Maven wrote:ALL legal sane gun owners want to live in a world where we never need fear having to use a fire arm against a human being. But it simply is not realistic.
I live in a world where I don't fear to ever have to use a fire arm against a human being.
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs and the Universe trying to build bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

User avatar
Lady Maven
Teacher
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:56 am
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Lady Maven » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:52 am

Rock on then. I actually AM happy for you. But that does not mean have to share that belief. See, the thing is, gun supporters are ok with you NOT having one. All we desire is the same courtesy in return.
"By the nine arms of Vishnu, I swear I am not a Hindu!” - Apu


How did someone realize you could milk a cow? And what the hell did they think they were doing to the cow in the first place?!

mogami
Lost Soul
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:40 pm

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by mogami » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:15 pm

Hi, In China it is next to impossible for anyone including criminals to acquire a firearm. However since no one has a gun when a person decides to go on rampage they grab a knife and go to the nearest school and hack up kids. The whole point of legal gun ownership and being armed when you go out is that when the crazy people go on rampage someone is there to end it. How many bank robbers would commit the crime if they knew every person in the bank was packing heat? If everyone was required to be armed then crime of all sorts would decrease. It's not like you can form a gang and then run to "hole in wall" to escape and wait for it to cool down. If an honest non violent person had a gun it would not be used except to prevent or end a crime. If no honest person is armed then a few folks with box cutters can cause mayhem. We already restrict who can own a gun. We need to insure back ground checks and gun safety courses are done.
If you are unarmed then a person larger then you with a more violent disposition can harm you.
If you managed to make all guns in private hands vanish the bad guys would walk around with swords knifes or baseball bats and honest folks would need to do the same.
The problem is you can't make violent criminals stop being what they are. The question at it's simplest is "do people have the right to protect them selves?"
dU=TdS-pdV

User avatar
Atla
Urban Cowboy w/Guns
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: In your panties you naughty girl!

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Atla » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:53 pm

This is FUCKING AWESOME!

Why is it not being mentioned on the news? Hrrrmmmm?!

--------------------------------------------------

OFFICE OF GERALD R. FOX

JACKSON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY NEWS RELEASE

For Immediate Release June 29, 2010


DISTRICT ATTORNEY GERALD FOX’S STATEMENT ON THE U. S. SUPREME COURT’S DECISION IN MCDONALD v. CITY OF CHICAGO

Yesterday, in a resounding victory for all freedom-loving Americans, the United States Supreme Court confirmed that the Second Amendment’s protection of our right to keep and bear arms applies everywhere in America, and serves as a rampart against state infringement of this fundamental individual liberty. In its ruling, the Court declared that the right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right, and that self-defense is at the core of the freedoms protected by the amendment.


This Supreme Court ruling is binding on all states and local governments, and immediately renders some of Wisconsin’s current laws unconstitutional. Therefore, in keeping with my oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, I hereby declare that this office will no longer accept law enforcement referrals for violations of the following statutes:

Section 167.31, prohibiting uncased or loaded firearms in vehicles;
Section 941.23, prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons, including firearms;
Section 941.235, prohibiting the possession of firearms in public buildings;
Section 941.237, prohibiting the possession of firearms in establishments where alcohol may be sold or served; and,
Section 941.24, prohibiting the possession of knives that open with a button, or by gravity, or thrust, or movement.


All of these statutes constitute unjustifiable infringements on the fundamental right of every law-abiding American to arm themselves for self-defense and the defense of their loved ones, co-workers, homes and communities. This change also invalidates Jackson County Ordinance Sections 9.01 (firearms in public buildings) and 9.29 (CCW).

Prior to this historic ruling, our state Supreme Court placed the state’s interests first, and would only create an exception to these laws when the individual’s need for protection outweighed the state’s interest. In the area of concealed carry, only 2 cases have approved concealed carry, one at home, and the other one at the defendant’s personally-owned place of business. Well, as the United States Supreme Court held yesterday, that view was exactly backward.

As with the other fundamental rights, such as the freedom of speech, of religion, of association, or of security in our homes, persons, and effects, government limitations on fundamental rights are lawful only in the rare case that the state can show a compelling governmental need that can be accomplished only by enacting a narrowly-tailored restriction, in terms of time, place and manner.

Clearly, a blanket prohibition against carrying your loaded firearm in your personal vehicle does not pass that test.

Put it another way: Does preventing the barkeep from protecting herself when she carries the bank bag home from the tavern make sense? Not here, not anymore. That’s not an American value; it puts concern for the criminal’s welfare ahead of the barkeeper’s right to self-defense. The fact is, criminals don’t pay attention to gun laws, only we good folks do. After 15 years of criminal law practice, I can state positively that when criminals resolve to harm someone, no law will stop them. These so-called “public safety” laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over.

I will watch for the legislature to make needed corrections in these areas. In the meantime, while I am happy to declare that we will follow the Supreme Court’s ruling, I want to emphasize that with fundamental rights come grave responsibilities, and I will continue to vigorously enforce the laws against unlawfully using firearms, such as the prohibition against felons being armed; going armed while intoxicated; using a firearm to commit a crime; and endangering safety by negligent handling of a weapon, to name just a few. Only by the strictest adherence to firearm safety rules and common sense will we show that the elitists who seek to disarm all of us are wrong, and that every law abiding citizen can be trusted to protect themselves and their neighbors safely.

A copy of the Supreme Court’s decision can be found at http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf

A copy of the amicus brief joined by J.B. Van Hollen, the Attorney General of Wisconsin, can be viewed at: http://www.abanet.org/publiced/preview/briefs/pdfs/09- 10/08-1521_PetitionerAmCuStateofTexas.pdf

Let Freedom Ring.

Gerald R. Fox

-----------------------------------------------

Let Freedom Ring indeed!
~Atla the Impeccable!
You know, it's a human race. And you lost.

Connor
Lost Soul
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:17 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Connor » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:34 pm

mogami wrote:stuff
I'm not sure if that's brilliant parody or honest ignorance. Either way, it's given me a lol for the morning.

User avatar
Maverick
Explorer
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:28 am

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Maverick » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:46 am

lol

Who cares what Gerald Fox says, Im intrigued by a district attorney who is willing to flaunt that he wont respect police officers arresting people.

Im sure all the police officers will appreciate the guy, sending people back on the streets after they make arrests. Remember a police officer first has to arrest them before it even touches the DA's hand.

As for the reality of the situation, Chicago passed a new gun ordinance on July 2nd, effectively restricting gun ownership.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010 ... ons-enacts
Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

http://www.Flapship.com

User avatar
Lady Maven
Teacher
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:56 am
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Lady Maven » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:16 am

While I would agree with you on that point, no where do I see where he is refusing to uphold the law. In fact he says he will vigorously enforce it. If he has said other wise elsewhere, you'll have to post it. This article says nothing of the sort.

But what do you mean who cares what he says? I admit I know NOTHING about this D.A. but clearly YOU care about at very least what you think he has said.
"By the nine arms of Vishnu, I swear I am not a Hindu!” - Apu


How did someone realize you could milk a cow? And what the hell did they think they were doing to the cow in the first place?!

Connor
Lost Soul
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:17 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Connor » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:43 am

Lady Maven wrote:no where do I see where he is refusing to uphold the law. In fact he says he will vigorously enforce it. If he has said other wise elsewhere, you'll have to post it.
A DA is neither a judge nor a lawmaker. He has no power to determine the constituionality or lack therof of laws. He is infact beholden to prosecute people who break laws to the best of his ability until those laws have been changed. His only option to see these laws changed is to go to court and argue with a judge about it or lobby his elected representatives.

There is NO case history establishing the precedence of McDonald v. City of Chicago over carrying a firearm in a vehicle, over carrying concealed, over posession of firearms in a public building, etc - in the county of Jackson or the state of Wisconsin. Hell - Nobody has tested the precedence of McDonald V City of Chicago anywhere in the United States. He has no legal right to determine that a law is unconstitutional. He has no legal right to strike laws from the books. Nobody has determined that the laws are unconstitutional who has the power to do so - so they're still the law - regardless of his personal opinions.

He's just picked a bunch of laws he doesn't like, said that he won't prosecute criminals charges with those crimes and to hell with what the state's lawmakers say the law is and no he doesn't see the need to test his arguments before a Judge. If he wanted to do that - he should quit his role as a DA and go and defend some people charged with those crimes and argue that the laws that they've been charged with are unconstitutional as per the precedent set by McDonald v. City of Chicago and let the courts make a decision in accordance with the law.

Instead - he's just ignored the democratic process of electing lawmakers, he's ignored the judicial process and the adversarial process where lawyers make arguments before a judge and a judge makes a decision, he's just elected himself lawmaker and judiciary because he has budgetary discretion over prosecutions.

Do you really want your local DA to be able to ignore the courts and the legislature when he feels like it, because he happens to hold the purse strings?

User avatar
Lady Maven
Teacher
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:56 am
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Lady Maven » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:51 am

I asked that if he has said those things, links to that be posted. I made absolutely no other eommentary. THIS article does not say that.

And someone cannot say "who cares" as if to say NO ONE cares, when clearly THEY care. Frankly, anti gun people have been trying to eliminate gun rights since the beginning. Honestly, excuse me if I just cannot jump up and down with every case.

But seriously NO precendence?? Are you discounting Heller? The case that this one is considered a follow up to?

edit/ and stop yelling at me. *I* didn't do it. These days I am too lazy to get all up in arms about politics. One thing I have learned at my age is that shit does NOT change. Good bad or indifferent. All that changes is the media telling us what to be pissed about. Gun control, private rights, illegal aliens. I am tired of being controlled by my media. Do you know why I decided on legal research as a career? Because the law does NOT fucking change. I LIKE that about it. It gives me a sense of place and purpose.
"By the nine arms of Vishnu, I swear I am not a Hindu!” - Apu


How did someone realize you could milk a cow? And what the hell did they think they were doing to the cow in the first place?!

User avatar
Maverick
Explorer
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:28 am

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Maverick » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:28 pm

Correction, I can say whatever I want, its my first amendment right.

So if I want to say "who cares" not in the literal sense, but in the figurative sense that "Great Atla is making a big deal out of it, but at the end of the day it means very little to people who understand what a District Attorney does."
I hereby declare that this office will no longer accept law enforcement referrals for violations of the following statutes:
Section 167.31, prohibiting uncased or loaded firearms in vehicles;
Section 941.23, prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons, including firearms;
Section 941.235, prohibiting the possession of firearms in public buildings;
Section 941.237, prohibiting the possession of firearms in establishments where alcohol may be sold or served; and,
Section 941.24, prohibiting the possession of knives that open with a button, or by gravity, or thrust, or movement.
Those are state laws. The DA is saying that he will not prosecute those crimes. That is refusing the uphold the law. I havent read any other article, I read the one atla posted. I searched it and verified that it was an actual real article from a newspaper, but I felt no need to repost the same article when in the very text the DA stated that he would not uphold the following laws.
Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

http://www.Flapship.com

losmar
Necromancer
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:01 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by losmar » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:12 pm

What the guy "says" makes for good politics, especially in the more rural states. Gotta give him that, regardless of the process he went about with.

Connor
Lost Soul
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:17 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Connor » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:01 am

Lady Maven wrote:I asked that if he has said those things, links to that be posted. I made absolutely no other eommentary. THIS article does not say that.
I'm confused. He issued a press release that specificall says 'I hereby declare that this office will no longer accept law enforcement referrals for violations of the following statutes:' and then lists a bunch of statues that are on the books as valid laws in the county that his office serves.
Lady Maven wrote:But seriously NO precendence?? Are you discounting Heller? The case that this one is considered a follow up to?
That's not how precedence works. And it's not what the DA has said in his press release. He's arguing that McDonald v. City of Chicago means that he doesn't have to enforce the law or do his job. He doesn't have that power. He's a DA, not a judge and not a member of the legislative authority.

Before the precedence of Heller or Mcdonald can be established, it needs to be tested in a court - where he as the DA or his representatives should argue against it - because that's their job, while the defendant's lawyer argues that those cases do establish a precedent. It's how the adversarial system works, lawyers representing the state or the plaintiff argue the position of the state or the plaintiff and the lawyer representing the defendant argues the defendant's position - regardless of the lawyers own opinions regarding the laws which are being assessed. Then a Judge should decide if the precedent is applicable and if the laws in question are unconstitutional, or the if the legislative authority believes that those statues are unconstituional or just not reflective of the wishes of their electorate, they should revoke them and if necessary issue ammended statutes that comply with the constitution.

But none of that due process has been observed. the DA has just decided that he has no ethical responsiblity to represent the state if he happens to disagree, and he as a DA has no need to observe the legally guarunteed protections that prevent the abuse of power are unnecessary because he's the guy with the cheque book. Regardless of how you feel about gun control - that's an awful way to run a legal system.

User avatar
Nagash
Master
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:53 am

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Nagash » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:26 am

It would be good if pro gun Americans would travel a bit and see how well gun bans work for the rest of the world. Do you really think yourselves so inherently violent that your society needs guns to protect itself against itself? Do you really think you are the only exception to that rule despite pretty much all crime statistics proving you false?

And who gives a shit what a DA says? Let him make his case and see how the judges rule. Until that has happened, his words are meaningless.
If word gets out that I'm missing, 500 girls will kill themselves and I wouldn't want them on my conscience - not when they ought to be on my face!

User avatar
Atla
Urban Cowboy w/Guns
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: In your panties you naughty girl!

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Atla » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:20 am

Nagash wrote:It would be good if pro gun Americans would travel a bit and see how well gun bans work for the rest of the world. Do you really think yourselves so inherently violent that your society needs guns to protect itself against itself? Do you really think you are the only exception to that rule despite pretty much all crime statistics proving you false?
Laugh.

Have you ever traveled to America to see all the blood that runs down the streets from the Wild West shootouts?

I know how well weapon bans work for the rest of the world.

It's called 'History'.

Get you some.
~Atla the Impeccable!
You know, it's a human race. And you lost.

User avatar
Bogumil
Wayfarer
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:36 am

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Bogumil » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:04 am

An American trying to tell anyone else in the world to "get some history" is just hilarious.

Being gun free works well for some parts of the world. I'm not sure it would work here and in any case it will never happen here. I'd rather the government work on either keeping guns out of the hands of criminals or, more realistically, make prison an actual punishment so people will be disinclined to use firearms for anything other than legal, legitimate uses.

User avatar
Nagash
Master
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:53 am

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Nagash » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:31 am

I know that most major cities in the USA have no go areas and not a single major city in Western Europe has no go areas. Yet the former has gun proliferation and the latter has a gun ban.

So do enlighten me, Atla. Which parts of history show that gun bans don't work? I can't think of a single case, so I am very eager to see you prove your point. Any country. Any part of history. And proper sources, not 'gun nut magazine' or a local newspaper. Show me facts rather than empty statements blinded by fear.

Your first question got me wondering: if you ever were to travel to, say, London, you would have to leave your guns at home. How would that make you feel? Would it make you feel insecure? Would you constantly feel defenseless? I think it would, otherwise you would not cling on to your weapons and the right to wield them so much. I've been there, unarmed obviously, and felt quite relaxed and secure. Not a single moment did I feel threatened. The same goes for Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels, Rome, Milan, Munich, and Florence. And that's just a selection of cities I visited "where only criminals have guns". I'm afraid the airline ticket prices have prevented me from visiting the USA so far. But I don't imagine that when I do I'll feel much different. I am quite comfortable without a gun. And I've never been robbed so far. Never been threatened. The only difference in the USA would be that I'd have to stay out of some neighborhoods where in the cities mentioned before I could just pick a direction and see where it'd bring me. Even in the Parisian banlieues at night that would not pose a problem. At all. In the Bronx, Baltimore, etc. at night it allegedly would.
If word gets out that I'm missing, 500 girls will kill themselves and I wouldn't want them on my conscience - not when they ought to be on my face!

User avatar
Atla
Urban Cowboy w/Guns
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: In your panties you naughty girl!

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Atla » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:09 pm

Look.

We know gun bans don't work.

The 33 students at Virginia Tech weren't protected by the gun ban that was in place on the campus. Unlike you nerds and your D&D games, there is no magical force field that prevents a psycho from entering a banned area and killing people.

What's your solution?

Total gun pacification of the entire country?

I could go in depth about Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung, and Idi Armin... how well their gun control worked for their subjects. What with the Concentration Camps and Gulags.

But the point is mute.

Even with a total gun ban in most of Europe, YOU STILL HAVE VIOLENT CRIME.

In our country, the would-be victims have the opportunity to fight back(Except where law-abiding citizens leave their guns at home or in the car. Like Luby's Cafeteria).

Obviously it is impossible to outlaw crime, it is already illegal to rape, murder, molest, assault, etc. That doesn't stop it from happening.

The only solution is to fight back.

If you can't see that simple black and white truth, you are a fucking imbecile. And I've nothing else to say.
~Atla the Impeccable!
You know, it's a human race. And you lost.

User avatar
Nagash
Master
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:53 am

Re: It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

Post by Nagash » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:53 am

The 33 students at Virginia Tech also weren't protected by the fact that the shooter could buy a gun quite easily.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Idi Amin are poor examples. They have nothing to do with guns bans. They used their power to wage full scale wars and to empower themselves and their reign of state terrorism. Totalitarianism has nothing to do with gun bans. Concentration camps were places to force people to work themselves to death. Not to prohibit them from shooting each other. So I'll raise the same question again: enlighten me, Atla. Which parts of history show that gun bans don't work? I can't think of a single case, so I am very eager to see you prove your point. Any country. Any part of history. And proper sources, not 'gun nut magazine' or a local newspaper. Show me facts rather than empty statements blinded by fear.

You say that in your country the victims can fight back. And that they can. In my country far less people are victimised and therewith most people do not need to fight back and violent crimes are by nature less violent than in armed societies.. That is the better situation. If you can't see that simple black and white truth, you are a fucking imbecile.
If word gets out that I'm missing, 500 girls will kill themselves and I wouldn't want them on my conscience - not when they ought to be on my face!

Post Reply

Return to “Comments”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest