It's a fine day to be an AMERICAN!

[tubs]

I think Europe's gun control laws do help keep the murder rate lower than it is in the US (you are about 4 times more likely to be murdered in the states). A lot of stats I've seen seem to agree that property and 'violent' crimes are higher in Europe though (keep in mind that each country has slightly different opinion on what a violent crime is). These stats would lead me to agree with the suggestion that guns are an effective deterrent against those types of crimes.

But imo, I think it's rather silly to look at crime stats in relation to guns. I think a much greater deterrent to crime is from easing the effects of extreme poverty. There's more misery in poverty in the US than Europe.

[Atla]

Those lunatics put gun bans into place to better pacify their citizens.(Genocide of selected populations)

Duh?

The 33 students at Virginia Tech also weren't protected by the fact that the shooter could buy a gun quite easily.

So your solution is an out right ban.

There are roughly 80 million gun owners in the United States. If you were able to disarm 99% of them, you got 800,000 pissed off owners. 99.9% of them, you got 80,000 owners.

The Provisional Irish Republican Army was made up of around 30,000 TOTAL during their entire existence.

Your solution is highly improbable and extremely dangerous. Considering the high rate of military veterans that are gun owners, I'd say you'd be well and fucked to innact a ban.

But whatever helps you sleep well at night.

Personally? I carry a gun -everywhere-. Because it's my right and I feel obligated to protect those around me.

It's not because I'm 'scared'.

I carry because I won't tolerate criminal aggression against anyone.

[MoP]

So your solution is an out right ban.

There are roughly 80 million gun owners in the United States. If you were able to disarm 99% of them, you got 800,000 pissed off owners. 99.9% of them, you got 80,000 owners.

The Provisional Irish Republican Army was made up of around 30,000 TOTAL during their entire existence.

Your solution is highly improbable and extremely dangerous. Considering the high rate of military veterans that are gun owners, I'd say you'd be well and fucked to innact a ban..

So eeermmm... are you saying that if you take people's toys (guns) away, they will get angry and start shooting around? That's a great reason to let them have guns.

[Sturm]

If it matters, 1 non US vote for "No" on the gun ban.

[DeviusZwei]

So your solution is an out right ban.

There are roughly 80 million gun owners in the United States. If you were able to disarm 99% of them, you got 800,000 pissed off owners. 99.9% of them, you got 80,000 owners.

The Provisional Irish Republican Army was made up of around 30,000 TOTAL during their entire existence.

Your solution is highly improbable and extremely dangerous. Considering the high rate of military veterans that are gun owners, I'd say you'd be well and fucked to innact a ban..

So eeermmm... are you saying that if you take people's toys (guns) away, they will get angry and start shooting around? That's a great reason to let them have guns.

Don't make such a simple-minded and pathetic/ridiculous reply to what was a very well thought out and very intelligent post by Atla. How bout that? How about putting some thought into it, like Atla did, because the fact is, he is right. If you tried to innact a ban on firearms across the US, it would be much more violent than any other domestic fuck-up in American history, including prohibition. It would lead to a black market arms trade that would make the bootleggers look like elementary kids passing notes in class. Use your brain before you post a reply to a very well thought out and intelligent post. Atla is using common sense at least. You are using childish rhetoric, the word "eeermmm," referring to guns as people's "toys," and eye-rolling to completely ignore and attempt to refute the words of a man who is wise on this issue IMO. Do you live in the United States? Do you know how serious we consider "the right to bare arms"? I didn't think so. So take your childish rebuttals elsewhere, because it seems to me that the adults are talking right now, and you should move back to a topic that has already been thread-jacked by your big poppa Nagash. Go along now, find wherever he is spamming and spew your nonsense elsewhere... What a ridiculous post... I'm not even going to take the time to point out all the reasons why (minus the ones listed above) gun control in this country will not happen ANY TIME SOON. But I will take the time to point out one: you would see the largest "parade"/march on Washington this country has ever seen, including: the NRA, hunters, every state militia, every veteran who can still walk, and every person who has ever had someone even attempt to break into their house. What a dope. Oh and your country, and your continent, SUCKS. I've been there. It blows my sack compared to the USA, alright? So get over it. Next time make a real post and I won't flame your ass off.


EDIT - it matters to me Sturm. because you are known to have done your research before spewing nonsense concerning politics or any other matter you speak on here on these boards. the fact that you are non-US and say it's not a good idea (even if only right now in your opinion, i dont know), means you know a little bit of what you are talking about at least. if only other non-americans would bother to educate themselves a bit on american issues before slamming them with emoticons...

[owly]

If they made pot legal i'd be a dam good American

edit/everyday is a fine day to be american even though i don't agree with the government.........

[MoP]

So your solution is an out right ban.

There are roughly 80 million gun owners in the United States. If you were able to disarm 99% of them, you got 800,000 pissed off owners. 99.9% of them, you got 80,000 owners.

The Provisional Irish Republican Army was made up of around 30,000 TOTAL during their entire existence.

Your solution is highly improbable and extremely dangerous. Considering the high rate of military veterans that are gun owners, I'd say you'd be well and fucked to innact a ban..

So eeermmm... are you saying that if you take people's toys (guns) away, they will get angry and start shooting around? That's a great reason to let them have guns.

Don't make such a simple-minded and pathetic/ridiculous reply to what was a very well thought out and very intelligent post by Atla. How bout that? How about putting some thought into it, like Atla did, because the fact is, he is right. If you tried to innact a ban on firearms across the US, it would be much more violent than any other domestic fuck-up in American history, including prohibition. It would lead to a black market arms trade that would make the bootleggers look like elementary kids passing notes in class. Use your brain before you post a reply to a very well thought out and intelligent post. Atla is using common sense at least. You are using childish rhetoric, the word "eeermmm," referring to guns as people's "toys," and eye-rolling to completely ignore and attempt to refute the words of a man who is wise on this issue IMO. Do you live in the United States? Do you know how serious we consider "the right to bare arms"? I didn't think so. So take your childish rebuttals elsewhere, because it seems to me that the adults are talking right now, and you should move back to a topic that has already been thread-jacked by your big poppa Nagash. Go along now, find wherever he is spamming and spew your nonsense elsewhere... What a ridiculous post... I'm not even going to take the time to point out all the reasons why (minus the ones listed above) gun control in this country will not happen ANY TIME SOON. But I will take the time to point out one: you would see the largest "parade"/march on Washington this country has ever seen, including: the NRA, hunters, every state militia, every veteran who can still walk, and every person who has ever had someone even attempt to break into their house. What a dope. Oh and your country, and your continent, SUCKS. I've been there. It blows my sack compared to the USA, alright? So get over it. Next time make a real post and I won't flame your ass off.


EDIT - it matters to me Sturm. because you are known to have done your research before spewing nonsense concerning politics or any other matter you speak on here on these boards. the fact that you are non-US and say it's not a good idea (even if only right now in your opinion, i dont know), means you know a little bit of what you are talking about at least. if only other non-americans would bother to educate themselves a bit on american issues before slamming them with emoticons...

FYI, I'm not debating a gun ban in the US (I'm fairly sure it won't work, but that's also the reason I think there's something wrong in your society). I was just rather stunned that someone threatens (that's how I interpreted it) to wage a full scale war if you take away something he likes. I respect your right to bear arms, but don't call my replies nonsense and non-thought. The only nonsense in this thread is that having guns decreases crime. I'll agree that it does not increase it, the crimes that happen are just more deadly. Compare the UK's (which has one of the most severe gun laws in the world) crime stats with the US's:

UK: homicide = 2,03 / 100.000
US: homicide = 9,1 / 100.000

UK: homicide by guns = 0,02 / 100.000
US: homicide by guns = 3,6 / 100.000

UK: rapes = 1,42 / 100.000
US: rapes = 3,01 / 100.000

UK: robberies = 157,4 / 100.000
US: robberies = 138,5 / 100.000

(source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/)

It must be a matter of what you value most, I guess. A human life, or your flatscreen TV. And no, I've never been robbed, never had burglars, never was raped, I'm not afraid to walk on the street after dark, I'm not afraid to have my children walk on the street, never was threatened, never had my car stolen, ... So I guess that doesn't give me the right to debate?

[Bogumil]

But imo, I think it's rather silly to look at crime stats in relation to guns. I think a much greater deterrent to crime is from easing the effects of extreme poverty. There's more misery in poverty in the US than Europe.

I saw a study years ago that indicated poverty was consistently the biggest factor in determing violent crime rates throughout the US. The death penalty, gun ownership rates, etc. had little to no influence on violent crime when looking at the big picture.

MoP said nothing advocating taking away the guns of private citizens in the US. He made the point that violent crime rates are higher here than in the UK. They're higher here than just about anywhere else in the developed world It's a sad fact. Gun ownership does not make us safer, at least not from other private citizens. Incidents like Ruby Ridge, Waco and other, everyday cases receiving less media coverage would seem to indicate gun ownership doesn't even make us safer from our own government. That being the case, I'm not sure how that right is protecting us. I'm still not advocating a gun ban or even that people shouldn't own guns, just food for thought.

Personally? I carry a gun -everywhere-. Because it's my right and I feel obligated to protect those around me.

It's not because I'm 'scared'

Actually, you are scared and that's fine. You fear a criminal act being committed against you or your loved ones. Your response to that fear is to take steps to defend yourself, one of those being carrying a firearm. That fear is what seperates Americans from Europeans. We carry guns to feel safe, they just feel safe.

[Nagash]

Actually, you are scared and that's fine. You fear a criminal act being committed against you or your loved ones. Your response to that fear is to take steps to defend yourself, one of those being carrying a firearm. That fear is what seperates Americans from Europeans. We carry guns to feel safe, they just feel safe.

Quite right. If you are not afraid, you do not need a gun. And in addition to that, the statistics show that we don't just feel safe, but we are safe at least when compared to the USA. That should indeed give one food for thought. How can all the millions of Europeans be defenseless victims, sheep to the criminal and armed wolves, while they are victimised MUCH less than their prolifically armed American counterparts?

I'm not even going to take the time to point out all the reasons why (minus the ones listed above) gun control in this country will not happen ANY TIME SOON. But I will take the time to point out one: you would see the largest "parade"/march on Washington this country has ever seen, including: the NRA, hunters, every state militia, every veteran who can still walk, and every person who has ever had someone even attempt to break into their house. What a dope. Oh and your country, and your continent, SUCKS. I've been there. It blows my sack compared to the USA, alright? So get over it. Next time make a real post and I won't flame your ass off.

Regardless of your thoughts on Eurasia, which seem rather black-and-white, your point proves again what MoP posted. Appeasing Atla's 800,000 is not a good reason to keep the right to bear arms. In fact, that you two are so convinced that a legion of armed people would march on Washington if a gun ban would be democratically imposed on your country, shows that these people are too unstable and stupid to even be trusted with firearms.

Those lunatics put gun bans into place to better pacify their citizens.(Genocide of selected populations)

Duh?

Bollocks. The ones you mentioned were authoritarian regimes who abused and subordinated their (presumed) enemies with all means they could find. The USA knows selective gun bans in their prisons. People who are sentenced to death don't get a gun to defend them. Makes sense to me. From the perverted logic of the nazi's it made sense to put helpless jews in concentration camps and to kill them. They'd be nuts to give those guys guns. It has NOTHING to do with gun bans.

Don't understand me wrong, I am not trying to convince you of the merits of gun bans. It would, however, be nice if you would find some actual reasons for it. Valid reasons. Good and valid arguments. And you simply don't have them. All your responses regarding this topic boil down to the same: you're scared to death without your gun and don't want anyone to take it from you. If they try to, you'll shoot them. Which proves you a rather volatile member of society. I'm glad they'll take your gun from you if you ever set foot on European soil. That makes me feel safer.

[Sturm]

Some counter stats on murder rates, to show that the US on a "per captia" bases isn't as violent as some places.

Rank Countries: Amount
# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
# 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
# 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
# 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
# 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
# 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
# 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
# 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
# 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
# 11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
# 12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
# 13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
# 14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
# 15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
# 16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
# 17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
# 18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
# 19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
# 20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
# 21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
# 22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
# 23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
# 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
# 27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
# 28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
# 29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
# 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
# 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
# 32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
# 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
# 34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
# 35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
# 36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
# 37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
# 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
# 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
# 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
# 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
# 42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
# 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
# 45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
# 47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
# 48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
# 49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
# 50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
# 51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
# 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
# 53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
# 54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
# 55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
# 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
# 57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
# 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
# 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
# 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
# 61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
# 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

=====================================

Stats on a "Total" murder count, based on a populus of (US)300,000,000//(UK)63,000,000:

=====================================
Rank Countries: Amount
# 1 India: 37,170
# 2 Russia: 28,904
# 3 Colombia: 26,539
# 4 South Africa: 21,553
# 5 United States: 16,204
# 6 Mexico: 13,144
# 7 Venezuela: 8,022
# 8 Philippines: 6,553
# 9 Thailand: 5,140
# 10 Ukraine: 4,418
# 11 Argentina: 3,453
# 12 Indonesia: 2,204
# 13 El Salvador: 2,024
# 14 United Kingdom: 1,201
# 15 Peru: 1,136
# 16 France: 1,051
# 17 Belarus: 989
# 18 Korea, South: 955
# 19 Germany: 914
# 20 Zimbabwe: 912
# 21 Jamaica: 887
# 22 Nepal: 826
# 23 Zambia: 797
# 24 Poland: 716
# 25 Yemen: 697
# 26 Italy: 644
# 27 Japan: 637
# 28 Romania: 563
# 29 Malaysia: 551
# 30 Canada: 523
# 31 Spain: 494
# 32 Papua New Guinea: 465
# 33 Kyrgyzstan: 413
# 34 Moldova: 340
# 35 Bulgaria: 332
# 36 Australia: 302
# 37 Lithuania: 293
# 38 Panama: 281
# 39 Costa Rica: 254
# 40 Bolivia: 248
# 41 Portugal: 247
# 42 Georgia: 239
# 43 Chile: 235
# 44 Czech Republic: 234
# 45 Sweden: 219
# 46 Uruguay: 217
# 47 Latvia: 214
# 48 Switzerland: 213
# 49 Azerbaijan: 212
# 50 Hungary: 203
# 51 Saudi Arabia: 202
# 52 Albania: 179
# 53 Netherlands: 157
# 54 Belgium: 155
= 55 Estonia: 143
= 55 Morocco: 143
# 57 Slovakia: 138
# 58 Finland: 132
# 59 Armenia: 127
# 60 Namibia: 126
# 61 Tunisia: 119
# 62 Burma: 92
# 63 Greece: 81
# 64 Croatia: 80
# 65 Austria: 65
# 66 Denmark: 56
# 67 New Zealand: 51
# 68 Norway: 49
# 69 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 47
= 70 Hong Kong: 38
= 70 Ireland: 38
# 72 Slovenia: 36
# 73 Mauritius: 26
# 74 Kuwait: 23
# 75 Oman: 15
# 76 Maldives: 8
= 77 Malta: 6
= 77 Seychelles: 6
= 79 Luxembourg: 4
= 79 Iceland: 4
= 81 Dominica: 2
= 81 Cyprus: 2
# 83 Qatar: 1

=============================

Total crimes by country

=============================
Rank Countries: Amount
# 1 United States: 11,877,218
# 2 United Kingdom: 6,523,706
# 3 Germany: 6,507,394
# 4 France: 3,771,850
# 5 Russia: 2,952,370
# 6 Japan: 2,853,739
# 7 South Africa: 2,683,849
# 8 Canada: 2,516,918
# 9 Italy: 2,231,550
# 10 India: 1,764,630
# 11 Korea, South: 1,543,220
# 12 Mexico: 1,516,029
# 13 Netherlands: 1,422,863
# 14 Poland: 1,404,229
# 15 Argentina: 1,340,529
# 16 Sweden: 1,234,784
# 17 Belgium: 973,548
# 18 Spain: 923,271
# 19 Chile: 593,997
# 20 Thailand: 565,108
# 21 Ukraine: 553,594
# 22 Austria: 552,411
# 23 Finland: 520,194
# 24 Denmark: 491,026
# 25 New Zealand: 427,230
# 26 Hungary: 420,782
# 27 Czech Republic: 372,341
# 28 Zimbabwe: 351,153
# 29 Norway: 330,071
# 30 Romania: 312,204
# 31 Switzerland: 307,631
# 32 Turkey: 286,482
# 33 Morocco: 283,702
# 34 Venezuela: 236,165
# 35 Portugal: 218,360
# 36 Colombia: 214,192
# 37 Malaysia: 167,173
# 38 Peru: 161,621
# 39 Bulgaria: 148,915
# 40 Uruguay: 134,010
# 41 Belarus: 132,867
# 42 Tunisia: 130,375
# 43 Slovakia: 107,373
# 44 Greece: 102,783
# 45 Croatia: 101,853
# 46 Lithuania: 92,646
# 47 Philippines: 85,776
# 48 Saudi Arabia: 84,599
# 49 Slovenia: 81,697
# 50 Ireland: 81,274
# 51 Hong Kong: 80,592
# 52 Iceland: 60,242
# 53 Zambia: 59,426
# 54 Estonia: 57,799
# 55 Latvia: 49,329
# 56 El Salvador: 44,762
# 57 Costa Rica: 40,263
# 58 Jamaica: 39,188
# 59 Kyrgyzstan: 38,620
# 60 Moldova: 36,302
# 61 Mauritius: 35,943
# 62 Bolivia: 31,138
# 63 Luxembourg: 26,046
# 64 Yemen: 24,066
# 65 Panama: 21,058
# 66 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 19,814
# 67 Kuwait: 19,350
# 68 Burma: 18,301
# 69 Malta: 17,023
# 70 Azerbaijan: 15,520
# 71 Georgia: 15,029
# 72 Papua New Guinea: 13,292
# 73 Cyprus: 13,023
# 74 Armenia: 12,048
# 75 Oman: 11,782
# 76 Nepal: 8,872
# 77 Dominica: 7,857
# 78 Maldives: 7,026
# 79 Qatar: 5,838
# 80 Albania: 5,303
# 81 Seychelles: 4,297
# 82 Montserrat: 751

===============================

Total crimes by country / per captia

===============================

Rank Countries: Amount
# 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
# 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
# 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
# 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people
# 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people
# 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people
# 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people
# 13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people
# 14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people
# 15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people
# 16 Hungary: 44.9763 per 1,000 people
# 17 Estonia: 43.3601 per 1,000 people
# 18 Czech Republic: 38.2257 per 1,000 people
# 19 Italy: 37.9633 per 1,000 people
# 20 Switzerland: 36.1864 per 1,000 people
# 21 Portugal: 34.3833 per 1,000 people
# 22 Slovenia: 33.6236 per 1,000 people
# 23 Poland: 32.8573 per 1,000 people
# 24 Korea, South: 31.7267 per 1,000 people
# 25 Mauritius: 29.1982 per 1,000 people
# 26 Zimbabwe: 28.8753 per 1,000 people
# 27 Lithuania: 22.8996 per 1,000 people
# 28 Spain: 22.8867 per 1,000 people
# 29 Latvia: 21.921 per 1,000 people
# 30 Uruguay: 21.7017 per 1,000 people
# 31 Russia: 20.5855 per 1,000 people
# 32 Ireland: 20.2376 per 1,000 people
# 33 Bulgaria: 19.9886 per 1,000 people
# 34 Japan: 19.177 per 1,000 people
# 35 Romania: 16.4812 per 1,000 people
# 36 Slovakia: 16.3537 per 1,000 people
# 37 Jamaica: 14.3231 per 1,000 people
# 38 Belarus: 13.1592 per 1,000 people
# 39 Mexico: 12.8406 per 1,000 people
# 40 Tunisia: 12.5634 per 1,000 people
# 41 Costa Rica: 11.9788 per 1,000 people
# 42 Ukraine: 11.7793 per 1,000 people
# 43 Hong Kong: 11.6817 per 1,000 people
# 44 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 9.689 per 1,000 people
# 45 Greece: 9.6347 per 1,000 people
# 46 Venezuela: 9.307 per 1,000 people
# 47 Thailand: 8.80422 per 1,000 people
# 48 Moldova: 8.58967 per 1,000 people
# 49 Kyrgyzstan: 7.50486 per 1,000 people
# 50 Malaysia: 6.97921 per 1,000 people
# 51 Qatar: 6.76437 per 1,000 people
# 52 Zambia: 5.27668 per 1,000 people
# 53 Colombia: 4.98654 per 1,000 people
# 54 Turkey: 4.11252 per 1,000 people
# 55 Armenia: 4.03889 per 1,000 people
# 56 Georgia: 3.21338 per 1,000 people
# 57 Papua New Guinea: 2.39711 per 1,000 people
# 58 Azerbaijan: 1.76416 per 1,000 people
# 59 India: 1.63352 per 1,000 people
# 60 Yemen: 1.16109 per 1,000 people


Source-2010 Nationmaster

Taking away an Americans right to bare arms, is like taking away a Euros right to freedom of movement. (/Imho)

[Nagash]

Totals murders are not too significant, per capita says much more. Allow me to rule out the more uncivilised countries. That shows quite the big difference. And guess what? Finland (the #2 of the civilised countries on the murder list) also has gun proliferation.

# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
# 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
# 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
# 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
# 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
# 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
# 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
# 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
# 47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
# 48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
# 49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
# 51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
# 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
# 53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
# 54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
# 55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
# 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
# 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
# 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
# 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
# 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people


The "crimes per capita" says little to me as well. It says nothing about the nature of the crime. And crimes are only counted if people go to the police afterwards. So it might include shoplifting, or rank the countries where people take the effort to go to the police higher than those where the police is corrupt and no one bothers to.

Also, the statistics are different from these stats. Even if they sort of show the same trend.

[Sturm]

Your stats are from 2004, mine are fom 2010....so :p

[Maverick]

I wouldnt trust those stats because they are based on crimes reported. Some of the most crime ridden areas dont report minor crimes because they happen so often.

You should notice the disconnect between Mexico crime rates:

Murder Rate: # 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people

Murder Count: # 6 Mexico: 13,144

Total Crimes: # 12 Mexico: 1,516,029

Conversely US trends like this:

Murder rate: #24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people

Murder Count: # 5 United States: 16,204

Total Crimes # 1 United States: 11,877,218

There are only 3,000 more murders in the US compared to Mexico, but 10million more crimes?

Using that data murder is .1% of all crimes in America compared to almost 1% of all crimes in Mexico. In fact outside of the US, none of the top 5 murder countries are in the top 5 of crime countries. Where murder is common, you are most likely to see a lot of crime. The problem is when you have so much murder/violent crime you dont have the time to deal with petty crime. Thus many crimes in the US/UK that go prosecuted would not even be crimes in another country.

Furthermore comparing the US to other countries or comparing statistical data from one area of the nation to another is just not useful. Different areas have different crime rates for different reasons. In the North Carolina Mtns. they may have guns and 0 crime, but that doesnt mean in the projects of Chicago if they had guns theyd have 0 crime.

I think that its important for people who are trying to push their believes on others to actually understand where the other people are coming from. I do not preach that people in NC shouldnt be allowed to have guns, or that certain areas in the US can pass different gun laws. What I do believe is that when the massive majority of people in a certain area, all agree that they would be safer if guns were off the streets, that those people get to make the decision.

I dont need you protecting me with your guns, I dont need you to tell me stories about the Nazi's or any of that nonsense, Ill take my chances. I make my decision not to own a gun knowingly and willfully.

If some one else doesnt feel that they can protect themselves without a gun, they dont have to live in Chicago, they dont have to visit Chicago.

I dont think that is unreasonable.

[Nagash]

It isn't unreasonable at all. It's a simple case of democracy. And many are fond of the democracy only when it works for them.

[Lady Maven]

Connor, it IS how precedence works. What do you mean it is not? Do you understand egal precedence...?

And if he issued a press statement, POST it. I don't know it if you don't show it. You want to use it as an argument, CITE IT!! I am not arguing he did NOT say it, just that in THIS thread it was not proven.

And Maverick, I know damned well that YOU know that the First Ammendment right is between you and your government, not you and me. I did not suggest you would be arrested or shot for treason for saying it, I just questioned it. All I meant was that if NO ONE cared, you would not have posted it. Clearly YOU care. Even if it is in the negative. And if you have the right to say it, conversely do I not have the right to question it?

Bogumil, that anti-American bullshit was TOTALLY uncalled for. FYI, I have taken many many many college history classes because I ENJOY them. And I have a Canadian aunt who could not give a shit less about history. I understand being irritated at being called stupid, but a broad generalization like that is not fair and only makes you look like an asshole.

And come on people, we all know on these boards that correlation does not equal causation. No one here has the attention span needed to read all of your stats except the stoners, and seriously, they don't care.

And while we are on attention span, WHY in sam hell are you all quoting entire posts? I thought we only did that when we thought the person was too stupid to remember their own post.

[Nagash]

Bogumil, that anti-American bullshit was TOTALLY uncalled for. FYI, I have taken many many many college history classes because I ENJOY them. And I have a Canadian aunt who could not give a shit less about history. I understand being irritated at being called stupid, but a broad generalization like that is not fair and only makes you look like an asshole.

It was not uncalled for. When Americans tell Europeans to get some history is laughable, as in many ways we Europeans ARE your history. As for your Canadian aunt, she also has a national history of a few ages at best other than that of the original natives of the continent who mostly kept to their own business. Nothing anti-American about it, just a simple fact. That you don't like the fact doesn't make it anti-American.

Clearly Atla's bullshit about Hitler (why do people always have to bring old H. up anyway?) proved Bogumil's point.

[Maverick]

I dont care about what the guy said. The only reason I posted is because the thread is about laws in my city.

For example, if I saw an article about that DA, I would have never read it. I would not have cared. But if some thing else I am interested in, happens to have that article in it, I may be forced to look at the article so that I can have an opinion. Its not that I care, its just that unfortunately some one else cares. I could have said "Who cares what a DA says" but I would have been taking a risk by not knowing the facts. I am adverse to risk, therefore I checked to make sure that I was right.

You can say whatever you want, I doubt that you can find many posts where I tell people that they shouldnt have an opinion on the subject. I just dont have a lot of patience for semantic arguments. Whether or not I care about the DA is irrelevant.

As for the Bogumil statement, I believe (and he can correct me if im wrong), that the implication was that America is still new compared to Europe. So its odd to see an American telling some one from the old world, Netherlands, to get some history.

I dont think it was meant to imply anything about American's knowledge of history, as that would be dependent on the person.

[Bogumil]

Both Maverick and Nagash are dead on in their interpretation of what I meant by that statement. I just finished my undergraduate degree in history and I am trying to narrow down a focus for graduate school. History is more than just something interesting for me, I want to make a living in that field if I can.

I found Atla's choice of words amusing. America has some very interesting history but we just can't compete with much of the rest of the world when it comes to volume. And while I've found the average American's knowledge in the field to be underwhelming I certainly never intended to paint all Americans as ignorant. In the course of pursuing my degree I have been privileged to meet a number of people who most certainly prove the ignorant American stereotype does not always apply.

[Nagash]

I was pretty sure you meant that. You guys can't help it we took our sweet ass time to colonise the Americas, can you?

[Lady Maven]

While I WILL apologize for misunderstanding your remark, I still believe that bashing another person's country of origin is an uncalled for attack that is only meant to incite others.

The Constitution and law are NOT semantics. And excuse me, but you have bashed MY right to have an opinion on so many occasions that you saying that to me can ONLY be a joke. And a bad joke at that. And while at this stage I am TOTALLY willing to let by gones be by gones, and I hold NO anymosity towards you AT ALL I am not going to pretend that they did not exist.

And just on the point of history, I do believe Amercan history dates back to neopaleolithic times, or so an archaeologist friend assures me. History is NOT a subjective thing. It exists as long as people exist. Europe does have a long history, but so does our land. And, excuse me, but... so? I think BOTH are damned fine and I enjoy studying both.

But as to it being MY history, my grandmother was born on the Quapaw reservation, so some european history is mine and some NAM is mine.