This should be interesting.

[Venus]

Their lives are worth so little to me because mine and yours are.

i think thats a part that needs to be pointed out again:>

[Maverick]

Its easy to look back in time and say what is right or wrong.

It is a lot harder to try and look at what the people at the time thought and understand why they have the belief that they did. Im probably one of the last people to ever defend the Nazis and its my opinion that a good portion of the US could become very close to Nazis if the right conditions were present.

Times were different, and while you would like to believe that every person has some moral compass that will show them "right" from "wrong", that they would be compassionate towards others even if it means that they will have to accept slightly less, I just know its not true.

So when it comes to war, I think its easy to say:

Their lives are worth so little to me because mine and yours are.

But the problem is, they are saying the same thing.

Do you really think that the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba or whatever enemy the US has this week, are just murderers? Do you think that they were born just wanting to kill people and be evil?

I dont, I believe in tabla rasa. And with that belief I understand that each of us is molded by the environment that we grow up in. So if I had been born a Roman in 1 AD, I would have likely found no problem in killing a Christian, just because they were an evil Christian. And if I had been born in the middle ages, and was a crusader, I would have likely found no problem in killing an Arab or Jew, just because they werent Christian.

Yet we some how believe we are different than "them". The reality is, we are just the same. We have more powerful media to suggest what we do is "right" and what they do is "wrong", but Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia in the minds of certain media, and until it makes them more money to be at war with Eastasia, we shall remain at war with Eurasia.

Killing someone who seeks to kill innocents is a good thing
One side protects innocents one side targets innocents

The word innocent is defined by each side differently.

When a US drone kills 1 child or civilian, that is the US killing innocents to them. When they then kill a US soldier, they believe that they are "protecting innocents".

I am not a religious man, but I do believe that each human life is unique, and therefore its loss will always be irreplaceable.

When put in a position where it is kill or be killed, you have to chose your own life. But I think the point Droevig was making (and if im wrong feel free to correct me) was that with great power comes great responsibility. When you have the power to end some ones life, you must use that power responsibly.

Dont just kill people to kill, only kill when it is the last resort.

At least that is my opinion.

[Gili]

excellent put Mav. Totally agree with all of it. Its all about perspective

[tubs]

I do not think America should go to War anytime anyone anywhere is attacked
UK should have gone to war with the IRA and they did
I am sure that the US helped them
I would not say worth less just not Americans so not Americas direct responsibility

Unfortunately the US did not help the UK with the IRA. It was 9/11 and the War on Terror that undermined Sinn Fein's support in the US and Libya, though, which led to peace talks.

[Nato]

The military does help dehumanize whomever they are fighting against; I think that is what is so upsetting. But I think it's important to point out that the other people the military engages with are also soldiers. They are taking the same risks as our guys, as warriors. They went out to fight or defend or whatever and they are taking on the consequences just the same.

I want to be clear though. I'm not supporting our military in a fuck-all kill-everyone-you-can-fest. I'm supporting our military so you can go over there and make a fucking difference, a positive impact, so everyone on the planet can fucking come home safely.

[Atla]

Not really gonna argue the whole "Coulda-woulda-mighta-been" thought process on how I could've been a McNasty beating my wife and training the local orphans to be suicide bombers cause I wasn't raised no better.

The reason we dehumanize our enemies is that it lessens the psychological impact on us.

Some people, apparently, have a natural aversion to killing their fellow man, regardless of the justification and circumstances.

Bizarre I know.

They do that to avoid thinking about the person they just blew apart with a claymore mine having friends, family, a hamster, and feelings. Helps us be better killers.

Jerries, Nips, Slanties, Charlie(IS IN THE TREES!), hadji's, etc.

Everyone thinks it's racist and get pissy about it. But it's better than having a higher percentage of fucked-up-in-the-head veterans.

[Grunt]

The US most definitely did help with the IRA
It was internal so we supplied mainly intelligence including under cover agents who risked their life to stop many bombings
Atla you for get the obvious that these people de humanize themselves
seriously these are the people who taped themselves serving a man his own son to him stuffed with apple in mouth

yet they claim we torture by keeping the AC too low
Some peoples moral compass is fucked up
do not be so open minded your brains fall out

[Nagash]

It's not hard to look at what the Nazis/Soviets/Taliban/Hamas/IRA/etc -DID- to see that they were wrong.

Allow me to respond on this little Atla quote, for the other part I will merely agree with what Mav said.


The Nazi's exterminated and deported anything they did not like and started a full scale war involving a major part of the world.
The Soviets, they raped everything that moved in Eastern Europe and deported their political enemies and anyone even remotely suspicious to concentration camps.
Taliban conquered their position of power in Afghanistan and abused it whenever it suited them.

So far, so good. But consider this:

Hamas blow up civilians willingly in their war against Israel.
IRA also targeted civilians willingly.

But so have the USA and Britain. Ask anyone who lived in a major German city during WO II. Ask the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Should we put these countries in your list as well? Do Americans and Brits feel guilty of this all as the Germans still feel guilt for WO II?

The Nazi's could get in their position of power because of the ridiculous reparations asked from them after WO I and the chaos and poverty it caused in Germany. They blamed the jews and the gypsies and made a point of showing improvement by exterminating them. Totalitarian regimes can do that, but in a sense they thought they did what was good for their country (c.q. their position of power).

The Soviets had seen a lot of misery caused by the Germans in their own country and upon exiting the USSR and entering the country of the agressor, they extracted revenge by raping EVERYTHING.After that, they asserted a powerful position and shifted their target towards the USA, getting paranoid in the process.

Taliban are defending their position as local feudalist hegemons. We did that for ages too.

IRA are fighting for their nation, or so they argue. The civilian lives are sacrificed for the greated good.

USA used atom bombs on civilians to end the war. Therefore they gambled that they might in this way spare more lives than it'd cost when the war would have gone on for a while. Then again, the position of the JApanese was weak and they would not be able to keep their stand for much longer. In essence, they traded Japanese civilian lives to save US army lives.

The rationale after the British bombs on German cities was silmilar: UK bombs cities, civilians die, surviving civilians lose their morale and revolt against Hitler, who started it all.

Point is, those on the receiving end don't argue in favour of those who drops the bombs. If your army kills my family, YOU are to blame. If my local dictator started the war against your people, then obviously he was right: you are the bastards that killed MY family, after all. Praise the local dictator!

It is the same with US torture. It is understandable that the US army need to force information from its enemies, just like it is understandable that the US and British governments, already tired of the war and having lost many already, rather resorted to bombs from a distance than a head-to-head assault.

But Droevig is right that the war causes grief on both sides, and it doesn't hurt to remember that, just as it is good to keep in mind that every side has its own perspective in a war. Agree or not, it sort of all boils down to the famous quote by someone whose name eludes me: "one man's freedom/resitance fighter is another man's terrorist".

[MoP]

seriously these are the people who taped themselves serving a man his own son to him stuffed with apple in mouth

And there are no sick videos/stories of Americans out there? I even posted an article recently of a guy who ripped out the heart of his friend because he 'was possessed by the devil'.

[Nagash]

Details, details.....

[Silverwolfe]

Heh... Wow. This really has been interesting. I would love to say kill them all and let god sort them out... but there are good people over there. They try to kill me, my friends, my countries allies or so on and so forth then I have no problem killing them. Hell, give me a legal order to kill ANYONE and i will do it. It doesnt bother me.

But as long as the people that I want to believe we are there to protect ie: the general population of Iraq/Afghanistan do not try to kill said people I have no problem taking an EFP for them, or killing to protect them. But any confirmed insurgent, anyone who shoots at me, anyone setting up a bomb on the roads, anyone funding these organizations, anyone training these people (and yes, I know that the U.S. Special Forces trained the Afghanis back in the 80's. Talking about now) should be taken out by any means necessary.

As for civilian deaths, In war there is collateral damage. However, our leadership does all it can to limit the amount of collateral damage there is by imposing retarded ROE on us. Like the fact that if someone picks up an AK, shoots at us, and immediately drops it we have to let him walk. That if we come under fire we have to CALL Higher in order for permission to return fire. That is another reason so many of us have died, because of our Rules of Engagement. Sure, many more of them have died but I dont give a damn. They aren't my countrymen or my allies. They arent the people I swore an oath to fight and die for.

but thats my opinion. How I feel about things. I like to think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[owly]

Come back to us alive

that's all

[Atla]

Hey, don't get me wrong. We got our screwed up videos to.

Like the marine that tied the puppy in a sack and tossed it over a bridge. His punishment shoulda been similar.

But so have the USA and Britain. Ask anyone who lived in a major German city during WO II. Ask the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Should we put these countries in your list as well? Do Americans and Brits feel guilty of this all as the Germans still feel guilt for WO II?

You're right dude. We firebombed entire cities, killed millions. Hell - we nuked a couple.

If I recall correctly that catastrophe started after a German night bombing went wrong and they dumped their payload on a civilian city and not military targets. So it became tit for tat.

Anyways. On to todays war front.

We target combatants. THEY target CIVILIANS.

'Nuff on the subject.

[Grunt]

It seriously pisses me off that we have a couple freaks go wild and it is equated to the systematic killing of civilians
While we have men and women risking all to protect strangers in a strange land from evil descending upon them they are put on the same moral level with those who wish to bake a boy to send the family and village a message
How can you moral apologists live with yourself
The truth is obvious to anyone who opens their eyes
EVERYWHERE they are in charge evil and brutality rules
which do you want for the innocent people of the world
I suggest you give up life under the American umbrella of safety and move to Somalia
And do not fool yourself Peace has had nothing to do with the socialist European system and everything to do with the American war machine
There are still forces that would dominate all this peaceful western society in a heartbeat if only we stop fighting for a moment

[Teanos]

Silverwolfe - be safe. Its easy for us to sit back here and tell you what you should or shouldn't do, but you are the one who is putting your life on the line. Hopefully you and those deployed with you have the equipment and training you need to preform your tour, and then return safely. If you are able, please keep us updated as you go through your deployment.

[Silverwolfe]

Well, Me and the boyz have plenty of training, and are or at least we think we are ready to head off. Ill make sure that I keep in touch with yall when I am gone. Take care.

[Teanos]

Atla - Gili said you are trolling because, quite frankly you are. Let me preface this by saying I actually like you and I do read most of your posts even if I don't always agree with the meaning behind them. But quite honestly all you are doing is posting your own version of hype and propaganda, trying to bait people into responding to your extremist point of view. Half of the content really has no merit.

I think you do nothing but cheapen and taint the decisions that some of our men and women have had to make, and will have to make. While I applaud your decision to enlist, and you have nothing more then my full respect for doing so and being willing to protect me and my family, I just wish you wouldn't cheapen a moment/decision that has kept some really good friends and close family members of mine up at nights.

Goodluck on getting your wish and getting deployed, and I hope that if you find yourself in a situation where you have to make a life or death (be it yours, or an "enemies") decision that you can do it as easily as you post you can here.

[Nagash]

As for civilian deaths, In war there is collateral damage. However, our leadership does all it can to limit the amount of collateral damage there is by imposing retarded ROE on us. Like the fact that if someone picks up an AK, shoots at us, and immediately drops it we have to let him walk. That if we come under fire we have to CALL Higher in order for permission to return fire. That is another reason so many of us have died, because of our Rules of Engagement. Sure, many more of them have died but I dont give a damn. They aren't my countrymen or my allies. They arent the people I swore an oath to fight and die for.

but thats my opinion. How I feel about things. I like to think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Isn't that very counterproductive? As foreign "invaders" you will always have the local PR going against you until you show the civilians that you really are there to help them. That's difficult enough as it is without having to let people go who do the shoot-and-drop you described. Must be hard to control oneself in such situations...

Good luck, mate!

But so have the USA and Britain. Ask anyone who lived in a major German city during WO II. Ask the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Should we put these countries in your list as well? Do Americans and Brits feel guilty of this all as the Germans still feel guilt for WO II?

You're right dude. We firebombed entire cities, killed millions. Hell - we nuked a couple.

If I recall correctly that catastrophe started after a German night bombing went wrong and they dumped their payload on a civilian city and not military targets. So it became tit for tat.

Much too one-sided. You should read some more. It was decided to bomb the German cities (most famously Dresden) to break the German civilian morale. That was the purpose of the bombing, nothing more and nothing less. Not saying that you can't blame the Brits given the scale of the conflict and the nature of the enemy, but you can't play the holy crusader and gloss over such events. Fucked up situations lead to fucked up choices sometimes.